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In this episode, we talk to Casey Armstrong, the Chief Marketing Office of a third party logistics partner called ShipBob.
At the time of publishing, the COVID-19 pandemic has forced a lot of holiday shoppers online, which is straining the U.S. logistics industry to the point where industry experts have coined terms like “Shippageddon” or “The Shipocalypse.”
Keep that in mind as you listen to this episode. We recorded our conversation prior to the holiday season and we tried to focus on tried-and-true fulfillment advice that will serve you through and beyond the current situation. Hang in there!
Casey was kind enough to share some of his favorites tools of the trade and walk us through his thought process for determining if an ecommerce brand is a good fit for working with a third party logistics partner. If you’re struggling to efficiently and effectively pick, pack, and post your orders to customers, this episode is for you!
Want to be a guest on our show? Have feedback or ideas for how we can improve? Send your thoughts over to firstname.lastname@example.org. We’ll be keeping an eye on that inbox. 🙂
The Ecommerce Insights Show is brought to you by The Good, a Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) consultancy specializing in helping ecommerce businesses accelerate their growth through better research, testing, and design. Learn more about our team, our work, and our services at www.thegood.com.
[00:00:21] James Sowers: [00:00:21] All right. Hey Casey, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really excited to have you here and appreciate you taking time out of your day to come talk to us about logistics and fulfillment and all things operations for e-commerce leaders, and maybe we’ll kick things off by just learning a little bit about you, maybe the 62nd version of who you are and what you’re doing over there at ShipBob these days.
[00:00:39] Casey Armstrong: [00:00:39] Perfect. Thank you very much for having me I’m so yes, over at ShipBob. Now I’m the CMO over here, oversee marketing and also the partnership side of the business prior to ShipBob. I was over at big commerce, uh, which I’m sure everybody is familiar with, but if you’re not set another one of the leading e-commerce platforms.
[00:00:57] And then prior to that, I was actually helping run a luxury watt D to C brand over in Europe called Watchmaster. And that’s actually, I’d say the first place that it really hit home for me and like the. Uh, difficulties and nuances of inventory management and shipping and fulfillment, especially since our average order value was like around 6,000 euros.
[00:01:18] And so, uh, tracking all of that was extremely important. Also inventory in and out, um, from a cashflow perspective was important as well because seams are, are not cheap. Um, and yeah, so that was, that’s the very quick version of the last eight, 10 years of my life. Oh,
[00:01:36] James Sowers: [00:01:36] wow. And so when you say luxury, you mean luxury?
[00:01:38] Like I think of a luxury watch. I’m like, yeah, maybe a thousand, maybe 1500. But if your AOV is 6,000 year old, like that’s a significant time piece right there. That’s like a, that’s what you see on the billboards at the golf tournament’s behind tiger woods, right? Like that’s the,
[00:01:50] Casey Armstrong: [00:01:50] that’s the Rolex Tara.
[00:01:51] Yeah. So it wasn’t our brand. We were selling, we were kind of like a more in the marketplace model. And so honestly the business was VAT, VAT, arbitrage buy from the South, sell, sell in the North. So we’d buy, you know, across like, um, it was like, you know, Rolex tech Coyer, um, uh, Omega Breitling and, you know, we’d buy down and like Greece and Spain and, um, a handful of the countries in the South.
[00:02:15] And we’d often sell within Germany, the UK, the Nordics, uh, Spain or not Spain, um, uh, uh, and also France. So that was, that was. High level of the business model. Right? So you’re on the
[00:02:28] James Sowers: [00:02:28] West coast now, but I heard through a previous interview that you did a bunch of world traveling left to get into that another day.
[00:02:32] Cause I’m curious to hear about, about your travels and your adventures there. Um, but usually I follow that question up with like, Hey, why should an e-commerce leader even care about the topic that we’re talking about today? And I don’t think that’s, we don’t really have to build a case for fulfillment, right.
[00:02:45] Or, or logistics or shipping. Like people know that they need to get their product into their customer’s hand quickly and efficiently. They need to communicate with them throughout the way. So like, I think the case for the value of fulfillment as a priority has been made, but I’m curious, like, do you have any feelings around.
[00:03:01] Why somebody should be emotionally or intellectually invested in improving their shipping experience. Right. Like taking it from wherever it’s at now and making it better for their customers.
[00:03:10] Casey Armstrong: [00:03:10] Yeah. And I’d say that’s honestly something that makes my job a little bit easier is at the end of the day, if you’re in e-commerce you need to ship a physical.
[00:03:21] Good. And so the question is, are you going to do it? Um, or you can outsource it. Um, and then if you’re going to outsource it, are you going to hand it off to a company like ShipBob or are you going to hand it off to a company like Amazon, depending on your needs? Are you going to hand it off to, let’s say the local three PL that, you know, maybe you, you know, through another connection, um, and that’s where we need to fit in.
[00:03:43] And then the question on like how you should care about fulfillment a hundred percent. Because something that, that I think about a lot is what is, you know, where do you get. Um, 100% open rate that’s on the goods that you ship out. And so it’s that experience and how people remember that and how people tell others, because there’s no better marketing than word of mouth.
[00:04:06] Um, but how do you really just really nail that, that post-sale experience. And so that’s where we try to fit in, in one. Um, and I can get into ShipBob very briefly, um, but is a big push, a big bet that we’re making is distributed fulfillment centers. Is part of the key for direct to consumer brands to offer that world-class experience or let’s just even, let’s just call it what it is at Amazon level experience, Amazon, you know, they, they rolled out today.
[00:04:34] They became synonymous with today. Then they pre right before COVID hit. They moved to one day. That’s now like backtrack some let’s call it two to five days on the Amazon side, a Walmart target, everybody’s pushing for that. And so those are the, that’s what the customers expect. And so how can you achieve that when you’re a.
[00:04:52] 250,000, you know, dollar revenue brand, or even a 25 million GMB brand. How do you, how do you provide that level of experience? You know, you can’t do that by hiring internally. And so it’s finding, you know, the, the right methods and resources to be able to offer that type of
[00:05:09] James Sowers: [00:05:09] experience. At the end of the day, you either have to pack them yourself and send them out, or have a team to do that.
[00:05:15] Or you have to find a partner that can do that for you. And so like when you’re talking about a distributed network, you’re talking more and I’m making an assumption here about like in the past, somebody might have a central location, maybe in the Midwest somewhere that’s fairly convenient to reach both coasts.
[00:05:28] But now what we’re talking about is distributing your inventory across maybe half a dozen or even a dozen locations, smaller numbers at each one, but they’re distributed across the country. So the proximity between the product and the customer is much smaller and that helps you be more reliable in terms of the promises you’re making around two day shipping, expedited shipping or whatever you might have.
[00:05:48] Uh, is that an accurate description of like what, you’re, what you’re saying here?
[00:05:51] Casey Armstrong: [00:05:51] Yeah. And, and honestly, sometimes it’s even just going from one to two and it’s splitting it across the coast because just to simplify it the end of the day, it’s just it’s costs and it’s speed. And so obviously the closer and proximity you are, the faster it will get there.
[00:06:08] And also the closer in proximity you are, the less, it will either cost you or it’ll cost your customer, depending on who you’re billing. That
[00:06:15] James Sowers: [00:06:15] makes sense. So it’s a mutually beneficial arrangement, right? It’s more affordable for you. You pad your bottom line a little bit, but it also gets it there faster and more reliably from the customer perspective.
[00:06:24] Casey Armstrong: [00:06:24] exactly. And just, and just real quick, they’re like at the end of the day, every business also needs to like, you know, really understand their, their unit economics and cogs and everything like that, because it’s easy for, you know, for somebody like myself to say, well, of course you should distribute your inventory.
[00:06:39] Uh, and there are a lot of reasons why you should. But then you, like you said, you also do need to split your inventory. And so it’s understanding, like, what is your catalog, complexity and skew count look like? Uh, what does it costs higher up in the funnel, uh, you know, with like your supply chain to like purchase these goods.
[00:06:57] And so there are reasons to maybe consolidate more so. Um, but yes, those are definitely the benefits of splitting it.
[00:07:04] James Sowers: [00:07:04] What certainly adds a level of complexity to inventory management too. Right? Like I sought out a one product in the closest warehouse. So now I got to see where I have it. That is the next closest to you.
[00:07:13] And see if that affects me, you know, the promise that I made in terms of getting it to you in two days or whatever. Um, so yeah, it’s not without its pros and cons like anything else in life, I suppose. Um, we we’ve thrown out this two day number and I think that is like the industry standard. Like Amazon is set that we’ll get it to you in two days through their prime program.
[00:07:29] Um, I I’d like for you to share, if you could like. What goes into a promise like that? Like, why is that so remarkable from the customer perspective? It’s like, yeah, I get it here. I order it. It’ll be here in two days. That’s awesome. But like, what are all of the components for you and people like you and companies like you that go into like picking the product, packaging it, labeling it, get it like how many.
[00:07:49] Steps and milestones need to be hit within that 48 hour period to make that happen. Because I think that’s something that often gets overlooked. And I think that’s a big benefit to working with the three PL like ShipBob is like, you don’t have to think about this stuff, right. You just handle the marketing top of funnel, process the order, get them through the checkout process.
[00:08:06] And then everything after that, it just kind of happens. And I think when you’re working with a ShipBob, it feels like magic. And you don’t really think about like, All the heavy lifting you guys are doing back there, which is important. So maybe this is a good point to, um, I guess, give you the platform to, to talk about that and all the good stuff that you guys are doing for the fulfillment side of it.
[00:08:24] Casey Armstrong: [00:08:24] Yeah. So, um, I’ll, I’ll answer it more in maybe generally, uh, outside of maybe just like core ShipBob just, cause I think whether people are doing self-fulfilling or working with ShipBob or working with another third, um, third-party logistics provider is it’s really. How, how long does it take you to pick and pack and hand the good off to the carrier?
[00:08:48] And then how long will it take the carrier to deliver it? Because I know that some of the problems that happened earlier this year, where there were a lot of delays in getting goods from, let’s say a brand or from a warehouse to the end consumer, it wasn’t necessarily always the carrier’s fault, even though it was easy to point the finger at the carrier.
[00:09:09] Sometimes it was higher up in the supply chain at the, at the fulfillment center, because there was such an influx of orders. People were not able to pick, pack and ship out the good within like their promise service level. Um, and so maybe it was sitting in the warehouse for a couple of days, or honestly, in some situations a couple of weeks.
[00:09:30] And then when they got it to the carrier, it was, the carriers had some additional time as well. And so again, it’s really, how long does it take when an order comes in? How quickly is the order processed and handed off to the carrier. And once it’s handed to the carrier, how long will it take the carrier to get it to the end consumer?
[00:09:46] And so there’s just really like those two core components then on getting it from the carrier to the end consumer. There’s two other things to think through there. And that’s is it going through ground or air? And that’s another reason why the distributed fulfillment center network, uh, network is, is helpful because the goal is for you to ship things.
[00:10:04] Um, Is what is like the two to three day window you can get via ground because you will save because the cost to ship via ground is so much less expensive than air. Anybody can get, you know, hit a two day promise via air from like one location. That’s not difficult, but the problem is, especially depending on what your average order value is, that can get extremely expensive.
[00:10:27] Um, and so again, it’s thinking through again, from the pick and pack to getting into the carrier, then on the carrier side, is it going through ground and air and then how can you best optimize that? Right.
[00:10:38] James Sowers: [00:10:38] A lot of moving parts and probably not something that you would want to take on yourself any longer than you have to, because there are so many other components to running an e-commerce business that have their own level of importance.
[00:10:47] You’ve got the finance side, the marketing side, the customer support side, the product development side. I mean, all of these things are important and if you’re trying to do it all yourself, You can end up pulling your hair out. And so, um, without making this kind of like a commercial for ShipBob, which is fine, if it, if it is, but this next question I have for you, I thought it might be helpful to explain it in the context of like how you serve your customers through these three stages.
[00:11:07] And so when I think about fulfillment, I think of three big, like points of interaction, right? There’s the point of sale where you’re trying to convert somebody into a customer using shipping as a lever, right. Free shipping above a certain dollar amount or expedited shipping, whatever makes the case there.
[00:11:21] Um, order management, which is like, I’ve made the purchase and the order is going to happen and you need to communicate with me, like, what’s the status? Where are we at? When am I going to get it? And then there’s kind of like this post receipt period where it’s like, Hey, I might have some customer support issues.
[00:11:36] It was lost, it was broken or whatever. It’s, it’s not the right size. And then there’s like this analytics and reporting side of things where it’s like, how often are we hitting our Mark? How many broken products we have that kind of thing. So, um, just to recap, point of sale order management and kind of like post receipt, customer support, I think ShipBob kind of covers all those bases, but this is kind of an opportunity for you to tell us, like how you serve your customers through those three key milestones.
[00:12:00] Casey Armstrong: [00:12:00] Sure. So, um, in regards to, you know, giving that promise on, let’s say two, three day shipping, whatever it may be. Yes, we take care of that. Um, in regards to transparency across where is my item being stored or stowed? When was it picked? Uh, when was it handed off to the carrier? What does that delivery timeframe like?
[00:12:23] That is all taken care of by us. And then in regards to the analytics from things such as like, let me toggle on and off. What if I added another fulfillment center? How much would that save? Like my shipping speeds or costs, like we have all of that covered from the customer support side. Um, we’ll do customer support for, like, let’s say if you have any claims, not unlike your customer’s behalf.
[00:12:43] So that’s, that’s a little bit different. Um, and then something you mentioned earlier also in like, you know, you don’t necessarily want to do fulfillment for too long and I might be slightly biased. I agree. It’s also very time-intensive, but, but that is a question we get often is like, when should I think about handing this off?
[00:13:02] And, and I think. The best way to answer that is like, do you think that fulfillment is getting in the way of you growing your business? Cause that’s something we hear a lot and if the answer is no, or you S you like doing it, or, you know, especially at the beginning, I think it’s a good way to like, Be closer to the product and understand the process of fulfillment and what goes into it and that whole like unboxing experience.
[00:13:23] And then like using that as like a forcing function to like understand your customers better, because whether you do it yourself or hand it off, you should still be like digging into like what your customers are, uh, you know, a lot. Um, but I think that’s, that’s also the way to frame it as well, which is like, you know, is it, is it impeding in your growth, which is something that you mentioned earlier?
[00:13:41] James Sowers: [00:13:41] I think that’s one of those things that you see on YouTube or Instagram. Like you see this Steve jobs story, it started in my garage, right? So you see these e-commerce founders in there packing packages in their apartment, and there’s these big stacks of Manila envelopes or boxes or whatever. And they’re printing off the labels and they’re put them out and they’re putting handwritten notes in it.
[00:13:58] It’s like they’re doing this in the wee hours of the morning because they’ve been running their business all day. And sure that don’t get you by for a while, but eventually that’s probably going to lead to burnout. And if it doesn’t lead to burnout, it’s probably going to get to the point where like your ability to pack and ship the products is going to break down and you’re going to start getting negative customer reviews, late packages.
[00:14:16] You’re going to get bad word of mouth. Like I think when you start to see some of those signs is probably a good indicator that. You need some kind of help and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a full service, three PL it could just be some extra hands, but that’s maybe something to watch out for, I guess, in terms of when it’s right to start thinking about this seriously and what your perfect solution is going to be.
[00:14:35] Casey Armstrong: [00:14:35] And, um, you know, some, some brands have, you know, extremely complex, let’s say. Kidding or like an unboxing experience that they want. And so maybe they keep it in house forever or for a long period of time. Um, but w w one of the many stories that I like is that customer of ours, uh, this, the founder Knoll.
[00:14:56] Oh, he’s down in San Diego, a company called rainbow optic. Uh, you know, this was several years ago. He was when he reached out, you know, he was, he was up till like 2:00 AM, especially during the holidays, like every day picking and packing boxes. And that’s like all he was doing. He wasn’t doing product development.
[00:15:15] He wasn’t running tests on like sales and marketing. You’re just picking it back and boxes. And so then he hired a person, then he hired another person. And next thing you knew like 20 hours every day across like his team was, was him and like two other people. And they were spending a combined like 20 hours plus every day picking and packing boxes.
[00:15:31] I mean, it’s a good problem to have, because that means he’s making sales, but that’s all they were focusing on. This is like, why, why am I pouring money into doing something that could be handed off? It’s this low leverage activity. Versus like growing my business. And so then he eventually, you know, handed that off, he was able to more than double his sales in the next 12 months, because then he was able to focus actually like on, on growing, expanding his business.
[00:15:52] And this is a story we hear all the time, which is, Hey, you know, my, my spare room or my baby room where my garage is just like reeks of cardboard. And it’s just, you know, filled to the brim with like boxes. And like, that’s what I spend, you know, my, my nights doing. You know, it, it doesn’t have to be the case.
[00:16:12] James Sowers: [00:16:12] So if we characterize that broadly as kind of a misstep or misconception that e-commerce founders have about fulfillment is that they have to do it themselves forever or else they’re going to lose that personal touch. Their unboxing experience is going to be compromised. Somebody’s not going to get a package on time, whatever, what are some of the other like common mistakes you see, or maybe reeducation that you have to do when people come into ShipBob for a sales context or an onboarding context, it’s like, Hey, I know you were thinking about.
[00:16:37] Fulfillment in this way, but, um, our, our standard or our point of view is a little bit different. And let me tell you about what that’s like, is there a, a mistake or misstep, a misconception that founders come to you with often that you find yourself having to not necessarily correct, but maybe provide some guidance around.
[00:16:53] Casey Armstrong: [00:16:53] Um, I’d say something that does stand out a little bit, like I mentioned earlier is like around like the unboxing experience. And so I think it’s, it’s tough, you know, to be, uh, a direct to consumer e-comm founder and there’s competition popping up left and right. And so one of the ways that people try to differentiate, like we mentioned earlier is where do you get a hundred percent open rates in like, It’s in what you actually ship out and that’s the product.
[00:17:17] And so people will try to create these very memorable or Instagramable unboxing experiences. And I think that’s something that people need to think through for a couple of reasons. One is, especially if you hand it off, like the more intricate the packaging is, it will cost you more from like what it’s called kidding from like a kidding, um, perspective.
[00:17:41] And then also, um, how your fulfillment costs are often based off of it’s called dimensional way. And so that’s not just the size of the package, but it’s the weight of the package. And so that’s something to think through as well, because there could be a lot of efficiency gains by making your package, um, smaller, uh, or way less, um, that some people, again, they’ll try to make the most intricate.
[00:18:08] Package of all time, but if that adds an extra, you know, a couple ounces, um, and it’s that much larger, every single time you ship a product out, it’s going to cost you that much more. And so it’s just going to directly eat into your margins. And so I think it’s just being very, um, cognizant of what is actually costing you money and like what’s necessary to like, Really differentiate your brand.
[00:18:33] James Sowers: [00:18:33] what an example of the dimensional weight be maybe like if you had a floor lamp and let’s say a laptop or something that weigh approximately the same. So they’re both like seven pounds or something like that, or six pounds. It’s a big laptop. And so they weigh the same, but if the lamp has to be in this long tubular kind of package, whereas the laptop can be kind of small and rectangular and stacks a little easier, it doesn’t take up quite as much surface area.
[00:18:55] Would that be an example of like two packages that might cost
[00:18:58] Casey Armstrong: [00:18:58] dramatically different to ship
[00:18:59] James Sowers: [00:18:59] because of the dimension and the weight? Or is it more about the pure weight of the, of the
[00:19:04] Casey Armstrong: [00:19:04] product? Well, that, but also, um, yes. And, and then also again, when you get into like the different, let’s say weight thresholds as well.
[00:19:15] Um, cause, cause that’s what I, you know, wanted to really harp on there is just if. W w w once it starts getting more intricate and pushing you above different, different thresholds, again, that’s, what’s going to cost you more. And again, maybe it’s 10, 20, 70 cents, but that’s every single package and multiply that times 12 months a year, you know, that can eat new margins pretty quickly.
[00:19:36] So it was like a tax bracket.
[00:19:37] James Sowers: [00:19:37] It’s like, you don’t want to make an extra $10,000 because then you’re going to have to pay an extra percent in taxes. Yeah.
[00:19:43] Casey Armstrong: [00:19:43] I think you do want to make that extra time. Okay. But
[00:19:45] James Sowers: [00:19:45] yeah, you probably do, but you might, you might find some write-offs right. To get you back down in if you can responsibly.
[00:19:51] Of course. So like, Maybe you don’t want to add that other piece insert into your unboxing experience because it pushes you above that threshold or whatever. Um, so yeah, if we, if we talk about intricate packaging as maybe kind of a challenge or a complication when it comes to shipping, are there any other kinds of aspects, like I’m thinking in an industry that I worked in previously, we did a, um, subscription box in the month type of setup for high end spirits and shipping like alcohol across state lines.
[00:20:18] Was just prohibitively complicated because of all the regulatory requirements around that. That’s just one example that comes to mind for me. But are there any other like product types or industries or something where somebody who’s listening and is serving customers with a product like that or in that kind of industry might say, Hey, I need to find the right partner to help me because this isn’t as easy as say, throwing a t-shirt in a box or a padded envelope and getting it across the country.
[00:20:40] Casey Armstrong: [00:20:40] Yeah. I mean, I don’t think any of these will be too surprising, but like, of course, alcohol over the counter drugs. Um, perishables, uh, sometimes even cosmetics, if they have like a shelf life and you need, what’s called like a lot tracking. So, you know, you know, how long are these, these items good for something that I think is pretty surprising is, uh, batteries.
[00:21:05] So sometimes different types of batteries can be classified as dangerous goods. Um, and so that’s something to think about is like, are you including batteries or not? And also like the types of batteries. Um, and so from like a specific product perspective, I would definitely think through those off, obviously, if things are like very much oversized or heavyweight, that adds another layer of complexity as well.
[00:21:31] Um, but I also think maybe product agnostically is thinking through. Your catalog complexity. And so like, um, you know, how many unique items or skews do you have and like what your best sellers. Um, and again, that’s where a lot of times people will, maybe they’ve got 10 products or a hundred products or a hundred thousand products, but you know, really five to 10% of those are driving in a vast majority of their sales.
[00:22:01] And so, um, but they’re, but they’re, it’s still costing them. No money up front on the manufacturing side, it’s costing them money to store those goods. Um, it’s adding complexity to their business from like an inventory management perspective. And so again, outside of like, let’s say the dangerous goods and alcohol and OTC drugs, um, is just thinking through like the complexity of your catalog.
[00:22:25] James Sowers: [00:22:25] that makes a lot of sense. And so. To go back to our original point. So we’re talking about some of the challenges of finding the right partner or doing this in-house and getting it done ourselves. Um, well we go back to the original point about the distributed network and kind of building out beyond just a single warehouse and shipping location to two or three or whatever the right number ends up being when somebody is thinking through that and they’re saying, Hey, I’m growing really fast.
[00:22:48] Um, I’d love to get packages to my customers. More affordably, more reliably, faster, whatever the case may be. When they think about adding a second location, should they be thinking in terms of like, I need to keep it close to me or I need to keep it close to maybe where I source my product from the manufacturer, the warehouse, do I need to do some customer analysis and figure out like, what percentage of my customers live on the West coast or at least the Western half of the country versus the Eastern half.
[00:23:11] And like, how would you recommend somebody go about maybe auditing their business operations to figure out where like geographically, they should be placing those two locations.
[00:23:21] Casey Armstrong: [00:23:21] Yeah. So something that we do before anybody starts with us is we call it a time in transit analysis. Um, and so I think to simplify that it’s always, where are your customers?
[00:23:33] It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you’re, if your fulfillment centers close to you. It doesn’t matter that much. If your fulfillment center is close to where you’re manufacturing. Um, it’s nice to be close to some of the ports, but freight costs. Um, to get the goods to the fulfillment center is going to be a lot less than shipping than the aggregate shipping and fulfillment cost of all of your orders.
[00:23:56] And so again, it’s always optimizing to be as close to the largest base of your code base of your customers as possible. And I think that’s how people should, should approach it. And so it’s analyzing, let’s say the last 30, 60, 90 days of, uh, order data and where are those people living? Where do those people live and then, and then optimizing from there.
[00:24:16] And then again, depending on. The law, the size of your business and the complexity of your catalog is maybe even doing it down to like the skew level. For example, we had a customer that was shipping, like baby clothes, and one of them was like this, you know, shark print. Unsurprisingly, they sold extremely well on the Cokes, but not in like middle America.
[00:24:37] And so maybe let’s say you have three fulfillment centers, one in California, one in Texas and one in New York, you know, maybe you’d only store those goods in California, in New York, so you could get it so you could hit the coast. Well, and so again, maybe you’re looking at it across your entire catalog, or maybe again, depending on the complexity of your business, you’ll break it down even to like the skew level.
[00:24:58] James Sowers: [00:24:58] Interesting. And what I think you guys have recently added an international location, right? I think I read
[00:25:03] Casey Armstrong: [00:25:03] that properly. Yeah. We opened one up in Canada. In Europe or
[00:25:07] James Sowers: [00:25:07] what have you, what have you learned from that experience then? I guess, cause I’m guessing a lot of our listeners are shipping internationally right now.
[00:25:13] And so in terms of like your learnings, I know there’s probably still early days, you might still be figuring things out, but um, like what has your experience been like adding international shipping to domestic shipping here in the U S.
[00:25:24] Casey Armstrong: [00:25:24] Yeah. I mean, it definitely adds some complexity to these brands that are, you know, running these businesses.
[00:25:29] And so like, for example, even before we had any of the international locations, you know, we were shipping to pretty much every single country in the world, um, with Canada, um, they do have some regulations around like for like cosmetic and beauty brands. And so I think it’s understanding those regulations in advance before you try to like, honestly, ship your goods up there.
[00:25:52] Um, but it’s, it’s understanding that prior and obviously like the tax implications as well. And then same thing with Europe is, um, we’ve actually found less regulatory issues, um, in aggregate, but it’s, it’s understanding that or value added taxes. That’s, that’s how they calculate taxes over in Europe. Um, because you know, whether it’s been, you know, obviously there’s there’s Brexit.
[00:26:18] And so there’s like the UK, there’s the EU, uh, every single country, um, has in, in, across the European union has bearing, uh, that tax rates. And so it’s understanding that as well. And so again, you can, you can ship from the us, um, and there are pros of that, but it’s also going to take longer and cost more than shipping it, you know, from, let’s say.
[00:26:42] Uh, the same country where the, the end consumer is, or the same continent even. Uh, but yeah, so again, regulation and taxes, just as most things come down to,
[00:26:53] James Sowers: [00:26:53] right. It makes my head spin and, uh, my heart goes out to anybody. Who’s, who’s doing it at that level because I can only imagine the number of conversations with the attorney and, you know, everybody else that’s getting involved to make sure that we’re dotting our I’s and crossing our T’s in terms of, uh, international commerce.
[00:27:08] It’s a whole other ball game, I think, than just operating in whatever your home country is. Um, listen, we touched on earlier about how, you know, there are. Many aspects to running an e-commerce business outside of just fulfillment. Right. And it’s really easy. I think to get like dialed into the top of market, the top of funnel type of stuff at the brand marketing and the customer experience, and some of the conversion rate optimization, like paid ads, all that stuff.
[00:27:33] Like those things are sexy because they drive customers to your site and they boost revenue or whatever. But I think like, A lot of people neglect that kind of bottom of funnel post-purchase period, where it’s like, Hey, I’ve given you my credit card. I’m expecting this package. It’s going to come here in a few days.
[00:27:49] But then it’s like crickets in there. A lot of times when I buy it, it’s like I get the shipping confirmation. I get the tracking information. And then nothing. And then one day the box shows up in my house and I’m happy about it, but it just feels like that’s a missed opportunity for a lot of brands. So I’m curious, like, from your perspective as a fulfillment partner, what are some of those missed opportunities?
[00:28:07] What could people be doing instead to, you know, increase customer satisfaction or maybe increase average order value or whatever is top of mind for you when you think about that question?
[00:28:16] Casey Armstrong: [00:28:16] Yeah. So, um, in regards to like the customer communication, I mean, I think over-communicating is definitely better.
[00:28:24] And so people like updates on the status, I think, um, called Mo Lomo bursting and they’re doing, uh, they’re optimizing the shipping tracking pages. Um, so it’s more, it’s not just like your typical ugly, Hey, click here and see this, you know, blank page. It just tells you like, when this item should be delivered and it’s actually like infusing your branding on top and, and giving, and also doing, pushing like up-sale upsells.
[00:28:55] Um, but in regards to like modifying it. So I think that actually could help with like lifetime value. Um, I was just trying to optimize there, um, in regards to like average order value. I mean, we have our customer, um, which is like free shipping free two day shipping today for everything. Should I, that just for, you know, customers over a certain order.
[00:29:19] So I think that’s definitely something to test a lot as well. Um, we had, we had one merchant who was doing a substantial amount of volume. Um, and honestly all he did was like increase his, they had a very strong brand as well. But all he did was increase the average order minimum to get the free two day shipping by like $10 from like 75 to 85.
[00:29:40] And they saw, you know, near $10 jump in average order value, um, you know, from like a week over week perspective just by that alone. And so, I mean, that’s definitely something that should not be neglected and should be tested. Um, and even like utilizing, depending on like your fulfillment promise, utilizing that and ads too, maybe it’s even like in the persistent nav of your site.
[00:30:00] Um, but, uh, you know, I think that people are getting more creative as the customers become more educated and know what they want. I think it’s interesting to see how the brands are getting more creative and utilizing fulfillment, fulfillment speeds, as you know, not just viewing them as like a cost center, but like how can they be a revenue driver as well?
[00:30:18] James Sowers: [00:30:18] Yeah, that’s super interesting. And where would you recommend folks set that target threshold for the free shipping? Like one rule of thumb I’ve seen is figure out your AOV over a certain period, the last six months, 12 months, and then just add a percentage on top of that and make that the threshold for free shipping.
[00:30:31] So if your AOVs 50 charged, 10% on top of that, now all of a sudden it’s like 55 to $60 is the threshold to get free shipping. Is that kind of what you’ve seen among your, your clients and your customers? I
[00:30:42] Casey Armstrong: [00:30:42] mean, I’d say like very high level. That’s definitely one approach, but you know, the. Honest answer and unfortunate answers.
[00:30:50] Like it depends because you know, each business has different unit economics. And so, and like, where are your customers located and where are you shipping them from? And, uh, what does it cost for you to actually fulfill, like, if your average order value is. You know, $50. I don’t know what the manufacturing costs are, but if your fulfillment costs or your fulfillment costs $8 per item, are they $17 per item?
[00:31:16] Um, it just, it just really depends. And so I’d say, you know, it just really comes down to understanding like your new unit economics, what it costs for you to ship, um, standard, what it costs for you to ship and get that two day guarantee. Uh, and then just maybe charging that markup. Um, or maybe adding, you know, additional percentage on top of that, but just as, as always just really understanding, you know, um, all of the economics of your business.
[00:31:38] James Sowers: [00:31:38] You got to know your numbers. I think we said that like a hundred times on the show already, but it’s, it’s the name of the game, right? It’s a fact of life. Um, you know, one, one that I’ll share and maybe you’re already familiar with this and that’d be fine, but like, uh, there’s a product called get a RPU like average resonate.
[00:31:53] Revenue per user. So get a rpu.com and what they do. Yeah, it is, um, some companies will send out these emails that say, Hey, your product’s about to ship. Right. And so what they do is they add a section to that email that says your products about the ship, and then they cross sell them or upsell them into another product, like a complimentary product.
[00:32:10] Right. Or the higher version of whatever they bought. And this is kind of the last chance to like, if you click this button and add this to your cart in the next 24 hours, we’ll put it in the same package and it’ll come to you. And that’s one way that I’m seeing that product increase AOV. And it’s kind of like a sub element of the fulfillment, but it is part of that post-purchase experience that I think is, is really smart.
[00:32:28] And, um, it’s a fairly new product as far as I can tell. So hopefully that becomes a household name cause I’m a big fan of it. I think it’s a good strategy.
[00:32:35] Casey Armstrong: [00:32:35] Yeah. That’s interesting. Um, where that could cause complexity.
[00:32:40] James Sowers: [00:32:40] It’s already gone.
[00:32:42] Casey Armstrong: [00:32:42] Yeah. It’s already gone. Like for us, if an, if an order comes in before noon of where the fulfillment center is located, then the item will be shipped out that day.
[00:32:56] Um, and so I’d say your window there is pretty short and also like the Delta between when it’s picked versus when it’s actually shipped. That could be a very tight window as well. So I, I love how brands get creative and like, you know, increasing average order value and lifetime value. Um, but yeah, I’m just thinking about it on the outside and like some of the complexities there,
[00:33:19] James Sowers: [00:33:19] right?
[00:33:20] Yeah. They’d have to go back to that company and say, I can’t use your products ship. Bob’s too good. They’re getting it out the door too fast. I don’t have any window to send those emails. So I love that. I
[00:33:28] Casey Armstrong: [00:33:28] mean, honestly, I think a conversation we have often not to like, okay, you guys are too good to shipping at too fast, which I guess is like, Actually what’s happening here is it’s picked and packed pretty quickly, but it’s like sometimes customers might try to edit an order where they’ll say, Oh, I do want to add another item or, Oh, I want to modify my shipping address.
[00:33:46] But if it’s already picked and shipped, you know, it’s, it’s too late. Right. It’s
[00:33:51] James Sowers: [00:33:51] definitely a consideration to keep top of mind. I mean, not that you want to delay anything, but there are certain. Like goofs that happen and need to be fixed. And if the product’s already out the door, there’s not a whole lot, you can do to, uh, to rectify that other than, you know, sending a second one right behind it and ask them to return the first one or whatever.
[00:34:07] It’s not an ideal customer experience by any means. Um, so part of the challenges of running e-commerce business, I’m sure. So. Um, listen, we’re sitting here, it’s almost the end of 2020 we’re approaching Q4 and this year’s been anything but boring, right. Where there’s always a new roadblock coming up. A new challenge.
[00:34:22] We’ve had coronavirus, we’ve had some of the social justice kind of movements and all that stuff. So I’m curious, like this does have an impact on. Primarily, I would think the carriers, but that obviously impacts like your business and other third-party logistics partners. So what kind of things have you guys seen in terms of interruptions, delays, increased costs?
[00:34:40] Like what has been some of the big headaches for you this year and how have you reacted to those? And are there any like maybe on the horizon that you’re watching out for.
[00:34:50] Casey Armstrong: [00:34:50] Yeah. I mean, from, from just a safety perspective within our fulfillment centers, like from a health perspective, from distancing to masks and gloves to, we were doing hourly cleanings across every center, across our network.
[00:35:09] Um, and to like you mentioned some of the social injustice, um, from, you know, there was. Uh, there’s been hurricanes and floods and wildfires across the entire West coast. Um, just, just a lot. Um, but. I don’t know, it, it is what it is. It’s just being, uh, you know, we, as humans are rather adaptive and, and, uh, strong and persistent.
[00:35:44] And so it’s, it’s fighting through that. I’d say us as a business, it’s, it’s trying to understand like, We, we don’t really dwell on that stuff. It’s, you know, let’s first let’s take care of our employees, then it’s like, let’s take care of our customers. And then it’s focusing on what we have in our control.
[00:36:01] And so, you know, we work really closely with, with all of the major carriers and, and, um, So we’re trying to do what we can there to make sure that we’re providing the best experience for our customers and their customers. Um, and so just something that, that we’ve actually been focusing a lot this year is also expanding even like our carrier network and working with like a lot of the local carriers, because it’s, it’s true.
[00:36:23] Like the UPS’s USPSS FedEx is a world. You know, they’re competing. They’re, they’re trying to, you know, go through a lot of safety precautions for, for their, for their employees. They’re also trying to hire as fast as possible because of this massive influx and like e-commerce demand, you know, from, from three pounds, like us to the carriers, we all plan for peak season.
[00:36:44] You know, months and months in advance, nobody could plan for this overnight switch of like peak level shipping volumes in like the middle of summer. And so, you know, they’ve been having to compete against themselves to hire they’ve had, haven’t been having to compete. On Walmart, they’ve been having to compete against, you know, companies like us as we try to hire more and more.
[00:37:04] And so again, what does something we control? And so that’s expanding really like a lot of our carrier network and working with a lot of like the smaller local carriers. And that’s actually been a huge boost to our business and to our customers where. We can get a lot of goodness to the end consumer in one to two days by utilizing a lot of the local carrier networks and also doing it much more.
[00:37:23] Cost-effectively um, and so again, it’s just trying to focus on what do you, what do you have in your control and, and where do you think that, you know, the, the shift is going to be most impactful for your customer base and, and try to knock those out. Are
[00:37:37] James Sowers: [00:37:37] you seeing any issues with those regional carriers in terms of like customer experience?
[00:37:41] So I worked with some of those in the past and what I saw was like, you know, their systems aren’t as modern as a FedEx or ups. Like they don’t integrate with as many tools like ShipStation or whatever. Um, even down to the tracking. Experience it’s like sending a tracking number was kind of hit or miss when you put it into the software.
[00:37:58] It didn’t always find it right away because they didn’t scan the label at the point of acceptance, they scanned it, like when it got back to their warehouse somewhere. And so there’s a few hours in there where it’s still on a truck roaming through the rest of that route. Like they’re not all that way.
[00:38:10] I’m sure. I’m sure some are fantastic. But if you’re working with multiple regional carriers, like, have you seen any of those hiccups or headaches and how are you navigating those?
[00:38:18] Casey Armstrong: [00:38:18] Yeah. I mean, so you, you felt this firsthand, I guess I could sense the pain and the very specific examples you pulled out.
[00:38:25] Right? Cause that is a hundred percent something that like, we definitely have to think through. Uh, and, and honestly, those, what you’ve outlined also has been some of the pains that, um, a lot of people have been having to even navigate with the major carriers because they’re trying to move so quickly. Um, there’s just been, I’d say an overall drop in like, you know, service levels.
[00:38:48] And so I think that’s just, it’s us identifying, which are the metrics and what’s most important for us with these local carriers and just being very specific on like the local carriers that we will work with because some are not that good. And some of them do a great job. And so it’s, you know, finding the right partners.
[00:39:04] James Sowers: [00:39:04] And unfortunately there’s only one way to find out because there is no Yelp for regional postal carriers, right? Like it’s just,
[00:39:10] Casey Armstrong: [00:39:10] no, give me, you can do a lot of bedding in advance and our leadership across the fulfillment network to extremely experienced and work with local carriers, you know, across.
[00:39:20] You know the country. And so it’s, it’s utilizing that. And so it’s, you know, you can weed out, uh, you know, you, you can identify and say like the best of the best pretty quickly, and then it’s focusing on them and then rolling that out over time. Well, it’s
[00:39:33] James Sowers: [00:39:33] good to hear that that’s a priority for you. I’m also curious about like pricing because it’s normal for shipping prices to go up kind of universally across the industry every year or two or whatever.
[00:39:42] I’m sure there’s a regular cadence, just like anything else in life prices go up. But I’m wondering if this additional volume, this additional attention that’s being given to e-commerce over traditional commerce and the increased volume of shipping that goes with that. If any of these major carriers or regional carriers, they’re saying like, Hey.
[00:39:58] Expect a fairly significant price hike in the next year or so, because we’ve got more staff, we’ve got a bigger fleet. We’re doing more packages for you. Like, um, build that into your budget now because it’s coming around the corner. Are you hearing anything like
[00:40:10] Casey Armstrong: [00:40:10] that? So we’re so every January, there’s the price psych.
[00:40:16] Um, I think what’s been unique and what that will be next year, that it’s TBT, uh, in a, in a various per carrier. Um, I think what’s been most unique about this year, and this is actually something very important for brands to think through is how carrier doing in, in, if you’re using a, a three PL is how are they going to help you navigate these prices and what are they going to do from like an inventory management perspective and also like a storage perspective.
[00:40:42] And so the carriers are adding, you know, let’s just say a COVID surcharge because of the increase in demand and some of the stuff they’ve had to do. And so from there is, are you going to have to eat. All of those costs is your three PLO gonna help, um, take care of some of that for you. Um, and like for us, depending on carrier, you know, we’re eating a percentage of that.
[00:41:03] It varies per carrier and per item type. Um, and then another item is. You know, I know, I know Amazon’s made a lot of news with they have, well, they always have an, uh, a Q4 increase in, um, uh, storage within their warehouses. And so that’s something to think through, you know, does your, does your three PL increase, um, storage costs in Q4?
[00:41:25] Um, and then also I’ve heard actually a lot doing like, uh, uh, COVID surcharge as well because they lack the supply to offer. And so they’re adding that. And so that’s something we’ve decided not to do. We just it’s flat rate storage throughout the year. It doesn’t change, especially not in Q4, which is when you need us the most.
[00:41:42] Um, and then also some people are adding like a COBIT surcharge on top of that for fulfillment, but then also I know something that Amazon’s done and I think they’re trying to rectify it to them. Has also limiting the amount of inventory that third-party sellers can even store in their fulfillment centers.
[00:41:57] And so that’s something to think through as well. And you just really have an open line of communication with your fulfillment providers, which is not only how quickly can they receive your goods, but also can they actually receive your goods if you’re going to, especially if you’re trying to like.
[00:42:09] Prepare for a large Q4, uh, you’re unsure. What’s going to happen in Q1. You’re unsure. What’s going to happen with COVID. Um, obviously, you know, and also Q1 there’s a Chinese new year, so people will often stock up with even more inventory. How much inventory can your three PL even hold? Um, because we’ve heard some pretty crazy stories of people shipping, you know, these large containers to their fulfillment provider.
[00:42:31] Oh. And to get like turned away at the door. Uh, that’s not a fun thing to navigate. And so, you know, again, just as, as general business, like. The more communication, the better with your, your core partners,
[00:42:44] James Sowers: [00:42:44] for sure. I mean, I can understand why people default to the top of funnel activities and marketing, because this sounds like a lot of bad news, but I mean, it’s, it’s part of doing business, right.
[00:42:52] And, um, it’s a big part of your expenses really, but there’s a lot to be a lot of thought to be given around pricing and how you communicate things like delays or increased shipping costs or whatever. To your customers. And so it’s important that, you know, we, uh, we get here today and talk about it. So, um, let me ask it.
[00:43:10] So if we were to flash forward a year from now, and I have you back on the showcasey and we’re catching up, um, what is something that’s kind of like on the horizon now that might take effect over the next, let’s say 12 to 18 months. That’s got you excited. It doesn’t necessarily have to be about shipping or fulfillment or anything we’ve talked about today can just be broader.
[00:43:26] E-commerce is there. Uh, technology, is there a trend? Is there some kind of movement that has some momentum behind it that has you excited? And you’re, you’re looking forward to seeing where we’re at a year from now. And, and when that goes out to the broader market,
[00:43:38] Casey Armstrong: [00:43:38] well, something you did mention like supply chain and logistics is a pain.
[00:43:42] And I think that one of the more sought after let’s say co-founders or first hires that, that people are going to start going after now is like, These supply chain experts, because if you can nail down from the manufacturing side to like the fulfillment side, there’s so much money to be made in the efficiencies in your business and a better customer experience.
[00:44:04] If you can get, if you can identify these people that are, that are really like. Running a masterclass in like supply chain and logistics that these DTC brands, because it’s often an afterthought it’s Oh, I need the marketer or, Oh, I’m the visionary of the product or you’re a combination of both, but like you’re, you’re thinking about supply chain and logistics much later down the road.
[00:44:24] And so I, I’m excited to see how. Some of these, let’s say people who are currently whatever, like a director of supply chain or director of logistics or VP of supply chain and logistics that some of these D to C brands just getting plucked or starting their own business, because they know this part of the industry so well, and you know, they can start shaving off margin points.
[00:44:43] In multiple parts of the supply chain to really run a much better business and provide that Amazon level shipping experience for the end consumers and identifying that it even goes up into what are the size of the goods and what is our product catalog, complexity and skew count. So I’m just excited to see how that continues to evolve, uh, in, in regards to the next year.
[00:45:04] Um, Outside of that. I don’t know. I don’t know if I have a good answer there. I think it’s, if we’ve seen anything over the last six to nine months, it’s it’s innovation and just these brands getting really creative, especially those that relied a lot on the in-person customer experience and like the in-store experience.
[00:45:23] And I think as we start to see e-commerce brands and technology continue to merge more and just these and just brands get so much more creative. Uh, there’s just like the sea of sameness across like Instagram ads and Facebook ads and like all these like D to C brands using the same agencies. And I think it’s going to be.
[00:45:42] Those that that really try to go in like a wildly different direction, like a company like mischief and some of the stuff they’ve been putting out, like from a marketing perspective, it’s just like mindblowing. And so, uh, I don’t know. I’m just excited to see that. Yeah.
[00:45:57] James Sowers: [00:45:57] think that’s a great answer and it makes me think of.
[00:45:59] You know, I know, um, in the military they they’ve run some exercises and they give this challenge to a team and they give them some resources and a prompt or whatever, and they just fail over and over and over again. But when they apply some constraints, they say, we’re going to take one of your team members away.
[00:46:13] Now you have to deal with two people. Instead of three people, we’re going to take away half your supplies. We’re going to put a time limit on it. It has to be done in 60 minutes or whatever you’re going to fail. And something bad is going to happen to you again, reprimand it, whatever. Like when you apply constraints, that’s like the fuel for the creativity.
[00:46:26] And that’s where people kind of break through. Right. They’re barriers because they’re forced to think differently and not just like, well, if we don’t make it here, it’s going to be fine. I mean, we’re going to get to sleep in a warm bed tonight or whatever. It’s like, you apply the constraints. You’ve got to get it done in 60 minutes or less.
[00:46:39] Um, or else something bad is going to happen. Like that’s when people start to get creative. And, uh, I think that’s a great point because that’s what we’re seeing from the world right now. Right? Like you said, we’ve got natural disasters and. And social injustice, and we’ve got the grown of virus going on.
[00:46:50] We’ve got a global pandemic who knows what the economy’s going to do. Like when all of these things kind of consistently pop up, that’s when like the best people are going to not just survive but thrive. And some of the folks who aren’t able to adapt are going to really struggle and, and that’s a fact of life, but, um, I think it’s, it’s exciting in a way that like I’m excited to see what comes out of it in terms of the new approach to how we do business.
[00:47:11] So I think that was a fantastic, uh, answer, Casey. Thanks for sharing that. Uh, listen, before I let you go today, can I give you 30 seconds or 60 seconds or however long you need to, um, just let folks know where they can go to learn more about you and then the work you’re doing at ShipBob and anything else you want to plug here at the end of the show?
[00:47:26] Casey Armstrong: [00:47:26] Yeah. Check us out. shipbob.com. Um, my email C Armstrong shipbob.com. If you have any questions, if you guys want any help, feel free to reach out. Um, That’s really all. I’ve got to plug
[00:47:39] James Sowers: [00:47:39] awesome. Brave man. Putting the email address out there, but listen, take him up on it. And if everything we talked about today, like I said, I heard a lot of like, not negativity, but just stuff that would concern me right.
[00:47:49] As a business owner. But if there’s somebody like Casey out here, who’s generously offering his inbox up to you. I would take him up on it and ask him whatever questions you have and see a three PL or whatever ShipBob is right for you. So, um, okay.
[00:48:02] Casey Armstrong: [00:48:02] To jump into, I wouldn’t get it like negativity. It’s just, these are the facts.
[00:48:06] And I think people confronting these and understanding them is how they can turn these negatives into a positive, uh, because we are in a very, for those of us in the e-commerce space, I think are just extremely fortunate right now, because a lot of us are able to. You know, maybe work from home or work remotely and run these businesses that, um, in, um, in an industry with a massive tailwind.
[00:48:33] And so this is the time, like you said, there are these constraints and I think your army examples of, you know, just a perfect analogy of it, of like you’re, you’re. Having things taken away from you or there’s like a time constraint. And so it’s, you know, how can you get creative and like adapt to these because there are solutions out there.
[00:48:49] And like, that’s what we’re trying to do. It’s hip hop, democratize, you know, fast fulfillment. And there are, there’s so much technology out there to make our lives easy as like a, as an e-commerce owner. And so it’s just understanding, which are the most important and like prioritizing the hell out of those.
[00:49:05] And then. Um, you know, I think that there’s just a lot of money to be made and some successful businesses. We’re going to see, continue to sprout out and thrive over the next decade.
[00:49:14] James Sowers: [00:49:14] Yeah, I’m glad you jumped in there because like, I think fulfillment can often be seen as just a cost center of a business, right?
[00:49:19] Like it’s, it’s just a thing that you are going to lose margin on because you gotta pay for the packaging and pay for the handling and pay for everything else. Uh that’s that’s the traditional mindset, but maybe the entire learning point from this episode is like, think of it more. Like a value center, right?
[00:49:31] Like when done properly, it actually improves the customer experience. It actually increases customer lifetime value. It increases loyalty. It raises your AOV. You just got to have the right approach, the right strategy, the right tools, resources, the right partner. But once you kind of shift your mind from like this isn’t a sunk cost, I’m not just throwing money at a problem just to get it to the customer’s door.
[00:49:49] Like I’m going to leverage this as an asset for my business. Then I think that’s where you like, hit that next level. That’s where you hit the next gear and you start moving a lot faster. And that’s just my take on it anyway, though.
[00:49:59] Casey Armstrong: [00:49:59] Perfect. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for having me here.
[00:50:02] James Sowers: [00:50:02] All right.
[00:50:03] Thanks for coming on the show and we’ll look forward to catching up with you here this time. Next year. We’ll see what that trends at and we’ll see what happened between now and then. So thanks for coming on the show. [00:50:11] Casey Armstrong: [00:50:11] Thank you.
About the Author
James Sowers is the Director of The Good Ventures. He has more than a decade of experience helping software and ecommerce companies accelerate their growth and improve their customer experience.